drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  61

  My First Post

  by today in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been visiting this forum everyday, reading and waiting patiently for approval to post.

  i've never been a jw.

  my husband and daughter are.

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  drew sagan

  A word of caution. Be careful how freely you use the term "cult." There is not much agreement out there regarding what the term means. Some view it simply as a pejorative that is attached to non-orthodox christian groups and religious movements (and in some respects I tend to agree).

  Remember that specific criticisms of doctrine and practice are seen as disagreements with "the truth." Disagree with them and you disagree with god. It's all your problem, you are the one that needs to get things straight. There is little in terms of rational argument that can arise out of this.

  Also, keep in mind you are new to this. Getting into heated arguments about topics you have lightly researched is not the best path to take!
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  26

  Can I ask elders a question without getting in trouble?

  by NiceDream in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recently i found no scriptural evidence to support 607 or therefore 1914. and the new overlapping generation really bothers my conscience because i don't see how it is scripturally supported.. .

  if i write a letter to bethel, or talk with local elders, i am afraid of getting df'd because i don't want to cause family conflict (with my spouse's family, not mine).

  i asked my spouse if it would be ok if i talked with an elder because i want answers, but don't want to cause family problems.

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  drew sagan

  NiceDream,

  Better to take your time on things. JWs react quite harshly to anything they sense is critical.

  I was lucky, because in my case my wife turned out to be a very weak JW (little did I know!). As soon as she realized that she could express her doubts freely, they came out nonstop. She simply needed an open environment where questions were allowed to be asked.

  One great thing that worked for me was open ended complaining. Little by little I would put complaints out there and see if they stuck. I never complained about doctrine, it was all about practice. Talking about the lack of community at the hall, how the "local needs" didn't really focus on local needs, how Elders talked big about things like field service but never showed up. We complained about going to meetings, how long they were, and how out of touch the Elders seemed. We also talked about all the people we felt were being treated poorly by the "in" crowd. I remember this went on for a period of months, usually after we came home from meetings.

  I really believe this helped my wife begin to express her dissatisfaction with the group as a whole.

  Good luck!
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  61

  My First Post

  by today in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been visiting this forum everyday, reading and waiting patiently for approval to post.

  i've never been a jw.

  my husband and daughter are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  drew sagan

  Carla brought up the Watchtower terminology I forgot about, i.e. "unbelieving mate."

  That is the true problem. As a married couple you cannot work through your differences on equal footing. The Jehovah's Witness leadership is constantly cutting in with rhetoric regarding "unbelieving mates." Much of this comes in the way of life stoires, where the Watchtower details how blessed a family has become after a spouse's decades long battle in converting their "unbelieving mate." The lessons most JWs learn is that even if it takes decades (yes decades), they should remain forever faithful to the organiztion because eventually unbelieving spouse will "soften" to the "kingdom message."

  This, of course, constantly undermines any work the unbelieving mate does in forming compromise within the marriage. Why relax your standards when you believe the person will eventually convert to the faith? Watchtower rhetoric inadvertently encourages a callousness towards people outside of organization because they are "part of satan's world." Compromise is seen as defeat for god and victory for satan. Its a battle between good and evil, and its smack dab in the middle of your marriage.

  To answer the question, if I'm better off without him? Yes. Is he better off without me? I think yes too. He would be free to marry someone from the KH who believes just as he does. They could get all dressed up in suite and tie, dress and stockings and go to meeting like one big happy family. My daughter I fear, would stay completely immersed in a doctrine that's destroying her mind.

  Seems like you have made your decision.

  Is your son currently being raised a JW?
• 
  61

  My First Post

  by today in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been visiting this forum everyday, reading and waiting patiently for approval to post.

  i've never been a jw.

  my husband and daughter are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  drew sagan

  Welcome to the forum!

  The most frustrating thing about being the position you find yourself in is dealing with the effects of the Watchtower's unfair characterizations of nonbelievers. Because are a non-believer you are labeled as a part of "satan's sinful world." Your feelings, thoughts and opinions are always second the "the truth", i.e. the fundamental doctrines and practices of the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses. You can never be right in their eyes because you refuse (for whatever reason) to accept this truth.

  Some people have pretended to be interested in becoming a Witness so as to gain the trust of friend/spouse/child/ect., opening a way for deeper, and usually critical, discussion of the religion. Others have been direct and confrontational. Some people walk away from these situations, feeling that they no longer have the energy or power to make a difference. Other people remain stuck, do nothing, and suffer. Some are even able to make things work, despite the differences that are present.

  The point is that you have many options. I would advise you to show patience, find some external support (this board helps!), and realize that you may eventually have some tough choices to make. Be prepared for the worst, but remain optimistic for progress.
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  36

  Finally got CoC!!.....Not really what I had expected.

  by JediMaster in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  ok, so i finally picked up coc from my local library last night.

  and started reading it like crazy.

  i think i read about 70 pages which brought me close to the end of the second chapter: "governing body".

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  drew sagan

  The book certainly demystifies the organization's operations, something that remains rather secretive from the religion's general "rank and file" membership.

  The fact that the GB truly believes and works within the framework of their own fundamentalist/exclusionist ideology is not surprising. The question is whether or not such beliefs are actually worth believing.

  After reading his first book I was finally able to deconstruct the myths I had of the organization and how it functions. The idealized hopes and dreams about perfect leadership and direction, as presented in Watchtower publications, was no longer possible. Ray's second book, In Search of Christian Freedom, launched me into the second part of the journey. Specifically, it helped me start to think for myself on the particular value of the Watchtower's arguments and beliefs.
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  43

  2010 District Convention - Some Thoughts on the Sunday Afternoon Session

  by Olin Moyles Ghost in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  out of a sense of morbid curiosity, i recently attended the sunday afternoon session of the district convention.

  the session consisted of a drama and the infamous "remain in the secret place of the most high" talk.

  overall, i got a sense that the wts is in damage control mode because the end hasn't come yet.

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  drew sagan

  I never cuss on this board, ever. But the new and improved definition of a generation has to be the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard from the Watchtower.

  Sorry folks, remember when we said one generation would not pass away? we actually meant two generations!. Sorry.... Oh, shit, maybe we were supposed to say three generations, not wait, four? Yeah, better make it five.

  Shit.
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  83

  My friend got a certified letter saying he is being DF'D

  by foolsparadise in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my friends wife just divorced him with no scriptural grounds about a year ago.

  kicked him out changed the locks on his own house won't let him see his children.

  he was living in his truck for two months.

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  drew sagan

  Seems like he should take this as an opportunity to move on in life. Appeal committees almost never bring a different outcome. As Blondie pointed out, they have all the 'evidence' they need. It's their religion, they can write the rules as they like. Sure it seems rather calloused and cold, but that's how its works most of the time.
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  26

  Can I ask elders a question without getting in trouble?

  by NiceDream in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recently i found no scriptural evidence to support 607 or therefore 1914. and the new overlapping generation really bothers my conscience because i don't see how it is scripturally supported.. .

  if i write a letter to bethel, or talk with local elders, i am afraid of getting df'd because i don't want to cause family conflict (with my spouse's family, not mine).

  i asked my spouse if it would be ok if i talked with an elder because i want answers, but don't want to cause family problems.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  drew sagan

  Funny one Bane.

  Putting debate regarding the technical details of 607 vs. 587 aside, a simple reading of Daniel (especially chapter four) without Watchtower publications or input made it pretty clear to me that calculations of the "gentile times" were mostly based on the apocalyptic speculations and code seeking. This more than anything else helped me realize that links between the accounts in the gospels and the book of Daniel simply are not there.

  Face it, C.T. Russell and other advocates of 1914 were looking for codes and hidden secrets in the Bible. Its really that simple. Now, over 100 years later, the religious traditions that have been born out of those ideas continue to be maintained despite overwhelming evidence against them.
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  26

  Can I ask elders a question without getting in trouble?

  by NiceDream in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recently i found no scriptural evidence to support 607 or therefore 1914. and the new overlapping generation really bothers my conscience because i don't see how it is scripturally supported.. .

  if i write a letter to bethel, or talk with local elders, i am afraid of getting df'd because i don't want to cause family conflict (with my spouse's family, not mine).

  i asked my spouse if it would be ok if i talked with an elder because i want answers, but don't want to cause family problems.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  drew sagan

  I was in the same exact situation. You may find it helpful to read through the posts I made as it all was happening. Keep in mind that things worked out really well for me

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/110153/1/Elders-want-to-talk

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/112545/1/Your-Advice-Needed-What-Appears-Like-My-Only-Way-Out

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/113471/1/The-time-has-arrived-I-need-your-support

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/113784/1/Going-to-meet-with-an-elder

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/114077/1/Speaking-to-an-Elder-tomarrow-Im-almost-free

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/114180/1/Luke-21-8-my-discussion-with-an-elder

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/114632/1/UPDATE-Local-Needs-Part-on-Apostates

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/115559/1/Guess-who-just-stopped-by

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/117115/1/Update-The-pressure-is-rising-Elders-on-my-trail

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/117947/1/Another-Elder-Visit-GOSH

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/132608/1/Update-Elders-on-the-move

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/135172/1/Discussion-with-Elder-a-must-read-story

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/135538/1/Well-here-comes-a-judicial-committee

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/135667/1/JC-is-over-now-the-aftermath

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/136627/1/Update-Drew-Sagan-is-no-longer-a-Jehovahs-Witness
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  29

  Mormon vs JW experience

  by thraxer68 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i was browsing some ex-mormon forums and i noticed that many of the experiences sound similar.

  people spoke about brain washing, viewing outsiders as being ignorant of the truth, im not sure if im allowed to copy and paste from other forums, if im not please let me know but here are a couple quotes from ex mormon forums:.

  "something i very strongly believe, is that even though everything has crumbled to the ground for me right now, i wouldn't change the fact that i left the church for anything.

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  drew sagan

  Exclusionary religions share many of the same characteristics. I think this goes hand in hand with the claims of restorationism, which argue that a "restored" and "pure" christianity has been organized in the modern era.

  These religions tend to have more intense experiences because they are more direct in their beliefs. They see the world in terms of "spiritual battle", us vs. them, the chosen vs. the dammed.

  As such, people who leave these kinds of groups are more likely to talk about how miserable they were under all the pressures and problems that come with those beliefs.

  Keep in mind that both the Mormons and JWs developed at the same time in American history, and share many of the same "restorationist" values.